Ep.14 | How dark patterns are tricking consumers (Guest: Mary Engle)

Show Transcript

[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to episode 14 of Privacy Lawls, where I, Donata Stroink-Skillrud talk with amazing privacy professionals, and we have some laughs along the way as well. This podcast is brought to you by Termageddon, an auto updating privacy policy generator. Today, I’ll be speaking with Mary Engle about a very pervasive issue that is causing a lot of privacy harms, dark patterns.

Mary is the Executive Vice President of Policy at the BBB National Programs, which fosters trust, innovation, and competition through the development and delivery of effective third party self regulation and dispute resolution. Prior to joining the BBB National Programs, Mary directed the Federal Trade Commission’s Division of Advertising Practices, Enforcing Truth in Advertising Principles, and Examining Social Media and Digital Technology Marketing Practices.

For her work at the FTC, Mary has received the Meritorious Executive Rank Award and the FTC Chairman’s Award. Mary [00:01:00] also has a J. D. from the University of Virginia. So Mary, thank you so much for joining me today. Um, can you tell us a bit more about your position at the BBB National Programs? What types of projects do you work on and what is your mission?

Sure. Well, thanks for having me, Donata. Um, so BBB National Programs is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to increase marketplace trust. And we do that by, by providing third party independent accountability programs, um, that assess businesses compliance with various voluntary standards, best practices, um, um, codes of conduct, that type of thing.

And, um, my role is basically to provide policy advice, uh, across the programs, the various programs within our organization and to help develop new programs. So how does BBB national programs help businesses establish trust with consumers? Like what types of resources do you offer to businesses? [00:02:00] Sure. So, well, the businesses and industries that agree to work with us, um, are basically agreeing to have us check their homework, so to speak, to make sure that they are in compliance.

And that provides a level of assurance, um, that the company is committed to transparency and to doing the right thing by consumers. So that helps increase, increase trust. And in terms of resources, um, we have folks who are experts in all the, you know, in Whether it’s privacy, advertising, dispute resolution, who can help, uh, companies with issues that come up and really we keep our finger on the pulse of developments, um, in whatever area it is and, um, it’s, you know, work hand in hand with a lot of companies to really help them, uh, to deal with whatever issues they’re facing at the time.

I think that’s so helpful to consumers because, you know, you go on a website and you see we’re compliant with this. We’re compliant with that. We do this to ensure that or, you know, these are the [00:03:00] promises that we make. And then you kind of do your due diligence and find out that half of that isn’t true.

So it’s nice to know that there’s somebody else doing that due diligence for you. I think that’s very helpful. Yeah, exactly. It’s, it’s having that, it’s not just saying that someone coming, not just saying that they’re committed, but by having a third party to check that commitment. Yeah. So you’ve done a lot of, um, work in truth and advertising as well.

Can you tell us a little bit about why that’s important? That’s so important. Sure. Yeah. So, you know, you think about the reason that advertising in the U. S. is protected by the First Amendment as speech that’s valuable is because of the information it provides. It’s a way for consumers or other businesses to learn about what products or services may be helpful to them.

Um, and it’s really, you know, a way it’s, it’s so important to the free market. It, it’s how we all learn and can, um, Really advance whatever [00:04:00] it is that we’re trying to do. And so. For it to have that value though, it’s got to be truthful and not misleading and claims need to be supported. So a lot of work needs to be done to make sure that companies can back up their claims.

We see so much of that in the U S not necessarily like truth and advertising, but almost like deceptive advertising. Like my husband and I were talking about this the other day, the subway footlong, which has been trademarked. So it’s not actually a footlong, you know, and I think that’s so deceptive because everyone thinks of a footlong as a certain amount, right?

And then they trademark that, and then all of a sudden it’s not. Like, that’s so confusing and misleading, I think. Yeah, and there’s lots of examples of misleading claims out there. And one of our programs is, it’s our oldest program, actually, it’s called the National Advertising Division, or NAD, and that’s a voluntary forum where Competitors can challenge one another’s advertising and, and, and then we have attorneys who solve the case much [00:05:00] like the FTC would solve a deceptive advertising case.

That’s really cool. Um, so what sparked your interest in this area? So I would say, um, you know, it’s, it’s, I don’t know, maybe a little bit embarrassing in terms of something very basic. But when I was a young lawyer and I was practicing at a law firm, but thinking about what I wanted to do for the rest of my career, and I definitely wanted to do something.

public service oriented, something that would serve the greater good. And I happened to see an ad that, uh, the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, needed lawyers to work on false advertising cases. And I thought, oh, false advertising, that sounds interesting. Maybe I’ll give that a shot. And it, and also it was always something And I, you know, kept with it for a long time, but, but for a couple of reasons, one is it is important to society overall, but also the issues are fascinating.

They are changing all the time. They’re topical. They’re in the news. I mean, it was always the case that I would see what [00:06:00] thing issues we were grappling with in, in the news. And it’s really easy to explain to your friends and family where you work on too. It has that benefit. That’s very true. Um, I have a very hard time explaining to friends and family because we do privacy policies, right?

And people are like, Oh, nobody reads them or, you know, I don’t even know what that is. So it’s, it’s nice to have something where, you know, it connects to people’s everyday lives. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We can all relate to the ads we’ve seen. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, so speaking of that, you know, something that we as consumers see all the time, and I think lawyers are more attuned to this.

A lot of consumers may not realize that this is happening, um, may be tricked by these things. And to be honest with you, I’ve been tricked by it too, um, which is dark patterns, which is our, our topic of discussion today. So can you just give us a quick overview of. What dark patterns are? Sure. So there are various definitions, but [00:07:00] generally speaking, dark patterns are online interfaces that impede users ability to make choices or decisions that somehow trick or manipulate them or deceive them into taking an action that they otherwise wouldn’t take, whether it’s buying a product or signing up for a subscription or giving away personal information that they otherwise wouldn’t have.

Yeah. And why are they so harmful? Well, almost by the definition of the way dark patterns are defined. It is that these actions that consumers are being tricked into taking are harmful to them, that they’re making a choice. They wouldn’t have otherwise. And, um, in the privacy realm, that generally is, either intentionally or unintentionally, you know, giving information, signing up for something where their information is being collected unbeknownst to them, or entering information.

It could be both passive and active in that way. Yeah, we see that so much in privacy, whether it’s from signing up for email [00:08:00] newsletters or submitting forms or consenting to being tracked. I mean, it’s absolutely everywhere and extremely pervasive. And we see a lot of vendors offering default options that are just basically dark patterns.

Um, or we see businesses adapting, uh, products that may be compliant and making them into dark patterns. Yes, exactly. And, um, I think, you know, one of the areas where that’s seen a lot is, um, with cookie banners, um, where those are presented in a way that is very difficult for you to exercise your choice and really they should be presented in a way that is is equally easy to choose, you know, whether you’re accepting which cookies you’re accepting.

Absolutely. I think it’s interesting cause you see like the design of the banner and there’s a lot of issues there, and then you see the text of the banner and it, like a couple days ago, I was visiting a website, and obviously like I’ve paid particular attention to this because I’m a privacy lawyer. [00:09:00] But I saw one that’s like, um, you know, we use cookies and cookies are delicious, but don’t worry.

These cookies are zero calories. So it’s no problem if you accept that. And I’m like, how did you manage to violate my privacy and call me fat all through a cookie? Oh my gosh. That is almost impressive. Yeah. Um, so, There are some categories, um, of dark patterns that kind of just describe, uh, different ways dark patterns may be employed.

So the first category that I wanted to kind of chat about is, is overloading. Um, what does that mean and, and what is it? Yeah, so overloading is a term that’s used to describe the practice of bombarding consumers with so many prompts and requests to, to provide information that they basically get worn down and they just start, you know, providing information that they otherwise wouldn’t have.

Yeah, I know that there’s one cookie consent vendor out there and I won’t name names, [00:10:00] but if you go to the website and you click on the cookie consent banner, let’s say you click deny, and then you click on another page and the banner appears again and you have to click accept or deny again. And then you go into another page and you have to do this over and over and over again throughout the entire website.

And by the end of it, you’re kind of just like, okay, fine. Just take it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I’ve not seen that myself, but that’s a good example of overwhelming . Absolutely. Um, what about skipping? What does that mean? So, skipping, you can think about it in terms of a user interface that’s designed to make you skip over or forget about the fact that the decisions you make do impact what information you’re sharing.

Uh, so you know, they. They these tend to end up causing consumers just to provide more information. So the result is similar as as with the overloading is that you get kind of worn [00:11:00] down. But, but this is the this is the pattern of just, um, You know, it’s so the distance or between when you take a certain action and when you give the information response to that is too far apart that you’ve forgotten skipped over.

It is the idea about it. Yeah. Um, what about stirring. I know I feel like we see a lot of this and cookie consent banners and email signups. How does that work. Yeah, so stirring on. It refers to stirring users emotions, um, or using visual nudges to get them to take certain actions. And I find actually this, this category a little bit confusing in terms of, because I understand stirring emotions like that.

It, it’s, um, the kind of thing where, you know, where you want to, one of the choices is labeled, no, I don’t care. care about my privacy or something, or no, I don’t care about getting interesting [00:12:00] content, or no, I don’t, you know, want to save money. So that is, you know, stirring your emotions not to do that, but it’s also visual nudges, which, um, you know, can, but don’t necessarily always appeal to your emotions in the same way.

And sometimes it’s called confirmed shaming and other, you know, other dark pattern experts will call that confirmed shaming. Yeah, I’ve seen that a lot where it’s like, no, I don’t want to save money or no, I don’t like good deals. And it’s kind of trying to make you sign up for their email subscription.

You know, where it’s like, you’re almost like an idiot if you don’t sign up to this. Right. Right. Exactly. Um, and then also in consent banners, you know, there are, um, I have seen this where You know, they include little images like designed images of a cookie where it looks like super cute and super fun and it’s having a great time and like [00:13:00] join it and, and having this great time.

But in reality, you’re just being like tracked and surveilled. So it’s not really that cute. Exactly. And that’s why I think, um, these are called dark patterns because they’re, these design techniques that, really, um, get you to do something that you wouldn’t have, and you don’t even kind of realize necessarily how you’re kind of going along with the, the site’s preferred behavior.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, what about hindering? What is that? Um, again, it’s, it’s just, uh, making it difficult for consumers to exercise, exercise choice or obstructing them from doing that. So I think there’s some overlap there. In these categories, because I feel like, um, you know, that could be, uh, like the, the, the pattern that you described earlier of every time presenting the, the cookie banner on every [00:14:00] page as opposed to just when you first start would be a good example of hindering.

Yeah, well, we see a lot of websites is, um, you know, you go to the website and they have like a privacy policy or something like that. And it’s like, you assume that, you know, these people care about my privacy because they have a privacy policy, but then you click on it and it leads to like an error page or something like that.

And you can’t find the right information or, you know, You know, you click deny on a banner and then, you know, you have no idea what, what happens next. Um, you know, yeah. Um, so the federal trade commission, um, recently announced that it will be cracking down on the use of dark patterns, um, that are designed to trick and trap consumers.

So what is the FTC done so far to, to crack down on dark patterns and what lessons do the enforcement actions and settlements provide to businesses? Yeah. So I would note that Initially, the FTC held a [00:15:00] workshop on dark patterns back in 2021 to kind of explore the issues that different types of dark patterns and and what consumer protection issues they pose and then a year later issued a staff report that summarized the findings of the workshop and gave a lot of examples of different types of dark patterns, including ones in the privacy space.

I would note that the overall workshop and staff report cover a broad range of dark patterns that arise in marketing, and a subset of those would be in the privacy space where consumers are tricked or encouraged in a certain way to provide their personal information and, and the commission. has started in its enforcement actions actually referring to these practices as dark patterns before.

I mean, it’s a relatively new term, the practice to describe an old practice, right? So the commission’s cases, you know, initially [00:16:00] when they were describing the conduct that the company was engaging in, didn’t use the term dark pattern. Um, but they, but in the FTC’s workshop report, they described, you know, here’s an example of a case we brought against a dark pattern.

Um, so for example, there was a case against Vizio, the smart TV, um, manufacturer where the FTC, um, uh, alleged that there were, uh, FTC Act violations because consumers viewing information and habits was tracked and shared with advertisers and they, and they weren’t, um, given notice or, or, you know, certainly asked for their consent about that.

Um, and then at some point when there was even some notification, the problem was that the setting name, and now I’m forgetting what it was called, but it was something like, you know, um, I forget what it was, but almost like interesting options or something like, you know, it was nothing that would lead you to [00:17:00] think that this was had to do with, um, you know, so that you would click on it and understand that this had to do with wedding, whether you’re, you would allow your viewing habits to be tracked.

So that kind of vaguely worded. Um, button the FTC called out, um, as preventing consumers from exercising choice about data sharing. And, and so in the, and now the commission is explicitly referring to dark patterns. There’s been some pushback about that because, because some commentators have worried that it’s hard to draw the line between, or how do you know what, what is.

meets the test for being an unfair deceptive practice under the Federal Trade Commission Act, the statutory standard, and what is maybe just good old fashioned marketing or just, you know, what, what is obviously marketers want consumers to buy their products to engage with them and where, where do you draw the [00:18:00] line?

But the FTC, you know, goes to Takes pains to describe in the complaint what the harms were that occurred from the practices that make it constitute a dark pattern as well as an unfair deceptive practice. Yeah, I think it’s interesting that they’re looking into dark pattern with privacy as well. Um, and in addition to looking at dark patterns, which is regular things like buying a subscription or purchasing a product.

Um, I think that’s very, very helpful to consumers and. I mean, I myself have been tricked by a dark pattern as well. So I remember going onto a website and looking at a product and it was like, this sale ends in 15 minutes and there’s like a little countdown and it’s like, Oh man, I really want this. This price is really good.

I only have 15 minutes to buy. And, you know, I better buy this now. And it was one of those products that I didn’t like necessarily need [00:19:00] need, but I wanted it and it was on sale. So I was like, all right, I’m going to get it. And, you know, I bought it. And then a couple of days later, I go onto the website just to like, look at some features of it.

And it says, uh, you know, sale on this product ends in 15 minutes. And I was like, okay. So then I go, I wait 15 minutes. And I’m looking at the website for 15 minutes because I’m interested in this, right? Right? Like I have the time. So, um, I’m looking at it and then the 15 minutes counts down to zero and then the timer resets.

And I’m like, wow, like I have been tricked and it was a product that I wanted, but I actually went back and said, I’m going to cancel my purchase. I don’t want this anymore because you literally tricked me into buying it. And I think that just, and I’ll never buy from that brand ever again. And I think that just ruins.

a business’s reputation. Because in reality, if I wasn’t tricked like that, I would have continued with my order. Maybe I would [00:20:00] have placed other orders in that store. But after that, I’ve never visited their website again. Yes, that’s a really good example of how using these types of practices can destroy trust with consumers and And lose business.

And, and, and, and that’s such an important issue for, for companies and to be thinking about instead of just sort of the short term, well, you know, I’ll get more, more consumers to click and buy if they, if they think it’s time is running out and the FTC has definitely called that out, that type of practice, these, these are false claims of limited time or limited quantity, or, um, you know, however, How many people have bought in the last hour or something?

You see those types of things. So, you know, how many people are looking at this thing at the same time, all of these to create a false sense of urgency to get you to take an action. Yeah, absolutely. And this happened like a couple of years ago and I’m still upset about it. You know, so it definitely, [00:21:00] you remember stuff like that for sure.

Um, so we’ve seen some new privacy laws, um, you know, out of California and Colorado, um, that specifically mentioned dark patterns as well. Um, so what did these laws show us about the importance of avoiding dark patterns and the um, evolving view on dark patterns by legislators? Yeah, so it’s interesting.

California and Colorado use the same definition of dark, of dark patterns, which um, is similar to what I said earlier. A user interface designed or manipulate, manipulated with the substantial effect of subverting or impairing user autonomy, decision making, or choice. So, um, And it’s interesting because I think initially when, when the topic of dark patterns was coming out, it was more in the marketing context, like what you were describing, the false countdowns or things, hidden fees, a lot of hidden [00:22:00] fees, um, a lot of hidden auto renewal, subscription, that type of thing.

But, but privacy or, you know, issues where consumers are basically giving me. Personal information or data became more and more, um, prevalent. And now that this states are looking at this issue, you know, it’s arrived, right? You know that dark patterns and, and, and, and California has said, um, in the CPRA that any consent obtained through a dark pattern is not valid.

So, it’s, it’s really important for companies in the space to make sure that they are not using dark patterns when they are, um, interacting with consumers and attempting to get their consent for, for whatever it is. And the, the states are really emphasizing the basics and, and, and similar to what the FTC has emphasized in terms of using easy to understand plain language, not confusing Having things like symmetry [00:23:00] and choice when options are presented, you know, a lot of times the, the yes option is very attractively colored and, um, you know, presented to the consumer and it’s, it’s the kind of the easy thing to click on and the no is either small and grayed out or like we talked before, where it says, like, no, I don’t care about saving money or no, whatever.

It’s framed in that way. Um, and they’re saying, don’t, don’t do that. And, you know, and just have it to be very easy for consumers to execute and not have to scroll to find links and so forth. So I think it, it, it shows that, um, that the issue of dark patterns in the privacy arena specifically is, is one that all.

Digital marketers need to care about. Yeah, that’s, we see that a lot as well. Like you’ll read a privacy policy and at the very beginning it says, we do not sell your data. And then you scroll to the California section and says, we may sell your data. And it’s like, well, which [00:24:00] one is it exactly? You know?

Yeah. I’m sure most consumers are not scrolling all the way to the bottom of page 20 to find that information. They see it in the first paragraph that you don’t sell it and then they’re like, okay, well, that’s great. We’re done here. You know? Yeah, exactly. Um, so the European data protection boards on the other side, um, they have adopted guidelines on dark patterns as well.

Um, what do these guidelines teach us? Yeah, so the European Data Protection Board guidelines are drafted specifically for social media platforms and, and specifically for compliance with the GDPR. So they’re definitely narrow. It’s a, you know, they’re narrowly focused on that subset, um, not, not online, you know, digital advertisers more broadly, but social media platforms.

highly oriented towards the GDPR. So what they do is [00:25:00] they identify particular types of dark patterns like the ones we discussed earlier, skipping, hindering, etc. And they identify those as well as various subsets of each of those. And personally, I find it I mean, it’s a little helpful, but maybe kind of over, it’s too much.

It’s like to, I don’t think you need to, you know, keep track of all these different types of dark patterns. It’s more to understand the overall notion of interfaces that, that manipulate consumers that are confused, confuse them. But, but, and then, then they, um, specify the various GDPR provisions that come into play.

Things like data minimization, Transparency, purpose limitations, and consent, and how those provisions of the GDPR may be, you know, different drug patterns may impact whether you’re in compliance with them. Um, the, these guidelines also use a, kind of a life cycle approach with respect to the social media platform.

So from when the user first [00:26:00] signs up or registers to when they try to close an account and, you know, the issues that consumers. might be faced with along the way in terms of the types of dark patterns that social media platforms might use. And they also provide, um, a checklist of practices to avoid.

Yeah, yeah, it’s nice that they provide like some examples there so you can kind of see, you know, what happens when this type of design is employed or this is what you should avoid. So you can kind of see like, okay, if I’m doing this, I should probably stop. Yes, exactly. Um, so speaking of things you shouldn’t be doing, um, one of my favorite, like, websites of all time is Deceptive Patterns Hall of Shame.

Um, what are your thoughts on this website? Do you have any, like, favorite examples, uh, that you like? So, yeah, I think, um, it, it’s a good place to go to see the various types of, um, [00:27:00] specific, you know, actual practices, like, you know, actual companies, what they’re doing that, uh, that, that people are calling out as dark patterns.

Um, you know, so maybe a lot of brands or companies that you are dealing with. So you can go there and look to see what others are thinking about in terms of, Oh my gosh, you know, here’s what they’re doing. And, um, I, I, and I, and it’s great for consumers who are, who are concerned Falling for these types of tricks and educating themselves on some of the practices that are out there.

Um, I, I guess for, for me in terms of what, I mean, I don’t, it’s hard to say like, it’s like a, my favorite or not a favorite, it’s like, well, but I kind of mentioned it before the, the cookie banner is I find really what I’m Um, annoying because you kind of have to, I mean, every time you [00:28:00] go to a website, right, you’re presented with this option.

And for most of the time, if you want to reject marketing cookies or, um, functional cookies or something, you’re going to have to click a couple of times. Right. And, um, obviously. If, if your option is to accept only strictly necessary cookies, um, and, and it’s just, it’s, it’s just so, it’s just so annoying to have to do that all the time.

And so, and it’s not really, um, compliant with the notion of presenting choices equally. And although one, I have to say last week, and I don’t even remember what website it was, but for the first time I came across cookie banner that said, except or except, except only necessary cookies. And I, yeah, it was so simple.

I could just click on that and go right and go right to the site. So personally, that whole area, I find annoying just because it happens all the time. And it doesn’t even matter if you’re not, [00:29:00] you know, if you’re buying something or not, right. You’re just browsing, you’re just reading something and you’re, you’re, you’re faced with these banners.

Yeah, they’re, they’re absolutely everywhere. The ones that really annoy me are the ones that are like, we use cookies to improve your experience. Click okay, and then you click okay, and it like makes no difference, you know? Like if I didn’t click okay, all the same cookies are placed on my device. If I click okay, then it’s the same exact thing.

So it’s like, what is this even trying to achieve? Yeah, well, that’s a clearly a failure of compliance on the part of the, of that website, right? Absolutely. But there’s a lot of website builders that include that as the default option. Um, or a lot of consent banners that include that as a default option.

And, you know, a lot of business owners, they don’t really know the difference. You know, they think, okay, well, if a vendor selling this consent banner, that means, you know, It must be good. Um, so kind of going into our next question. That’s a great segue. Um, [00:30:00] do you have any advice for businesses that would like to avoid these types of dark?

Yes. Yeah. And I think there’s a there’s a couple of things. And the first one would be to think about data. Minimum is minimization. Um, that’s a requirement of so many privacy laws nowadays anyway, but If you’re not trying to collect more information than you need to fulfill the customer’s request, then you’re less likely to be using a dark pattern to get that information, right?

So I think it’s just a very good kind of data hygiene practice to, data minimization should be something that is built in, um, privacy by design type of aspect to it. And then after that, I think you have to think about making sure you’re not Subverting consumers choices, and there’s three things to keep in mind.

And the first one would be default settings. Like, those are so, so important. So, [00:31:00] make sure your default settings are not set to collect, use, disclose, uh, The information that you don’t need and in ways that consumers wouldn’t expect. Right. So having things default set on is not a good practice consume, you know, get allow consumers to exercise the choice if they want to toggle on.

And related to that is making those consumer choices clear and easy to understand. So again, using plain, intuitive language to, for consumers, not these confusing or, uh, confirm, you know, shaming types of language, like we talked about before, you know, no, I don’t want to save money, um, and, and, and present these just in time, at the time consumers are making the decision.

Um, So that they know you don’t have that, um, uh, uh, skipping problem of where [00:32:00] you’re making a decision, but it’s not. You’re thinking about one thing, and it’s only later that you’re giving up the information. So just in time is important. And then when, if you’re still, Uh, a company that is collecting sensitive information, um, and all of the regulators are paying a lot of attention to sensitive information, whether it’s financial, health, precise location, children’s, and of course, if children, you have a whole set, set of, you know, Children’s Online Privacy Act to worry about, but, um, you should be very clear about what the consumer is consenting to, um, and don’t, you know, try to do a blanket consent in terms of what the information that they’re providing because, um, that’s just not going to work.

And, um, you need to be clear with consumers about what information you’re collecting, um, what, what you’re collecting it for and who you’re sharing it with. So those [00:33:00] pieces of information need to be presented, um, very clearly and plainly to consumers. And so I think that, you know, keeping that, those principles in mind as you’re designing your site will go a long way to avoiding this, uh, the potential for consumers to be inadvertently giving information that they didn’t intend to.

Yeah, I think that’s really great advice. Um, you can also go on the Deceptive, um, Patterns Hall of Shame, too, to see if maybe you’re accidentally using some of those patterns or, you know, looking through the FTC’s advice or the EDPB’s advice on, you know, things to avoid and things to look out for. I think those resources are really helpful.

Absolutely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then last question. Um, do you have any advice for consumers on how to spot dark pattern? Yeah, so actually I think the Deceptive Hall of Shame is a good, uh, pattern. Deceptive Patterns Hall of Shame is a good, [00:34:00] uh, uh, resource for that as well because it is a way of consumers becoming informed about the different types of dark patterns in practice.

The ones that they may have encountered or may encounter in the future so that they’re really. Um, sensitized to what to look out for. Um, and, you know, the more consumers can be aware of how these practices show up in the wild, so to speak, um, the more they, they will be on, you know, be able to take defensive measures and, and not fall for them, right?

So essentially, because you have to be educated so that you know what, um, what to look for. And so personally, like you had mentioned, you, you had fallen for one. And one of my, um, pet peeves is when I’m searching for, um, a hotel. Or a a, like a, a venue for an event. And [00:35:00] so many times the search results, the paid search results of a, for a hotel, you’ll think you’re going to the official site of the hotel, but it’s really a third party company that will make, uh, the reservations for you.

And you have to really like read the URL. To know that that you’re not going to that hotel that it’s it’s this third party and, um, there were times when I, uh, you know, I was checked and I went out and oh, my gosh, this is not and then it, you know, and one of the problems with reserving through a site like that is that if you’re, um, like a rewards member of that hotel, you won’t be getting your points and things like that.

But, but it wasn’t until I found out about the practice that I learned, okay, now I have to always look at the URL so that I’m not going to fall for that again. That’s so true because a lot of times those sites like have really unfavorable like cancellation policies or refund policies to where normally like if you needed to cancel [00:36:00] hotel stay, you can’t contact the hotel and they’re like, Oh, yeah, no problem.

But then if you try to cancel through one of these sites, they’re like, well, you know, you can’t. We need your first born child in your right leg, but you still can’t cancel. So exactly, exactly. Yeah, that’s a really good one. Yeah. I did not think of that. That’s a really, really good one. Yeah. Um, awesome. So Mary, thank you so much for, for taking the time to talk to me today about dark patterns.

Um, and for everyone listening, please make sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss our next episode.